Diesel startup

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Title: New Member J Bradley
Post by: J Bradley on March 28, 2006, 08:53:16 PM
Next weekend I will be going to pick-up a 1953 170SD my father has had in a garage for 15 years.  It was running the last time he parked it but he didn't drain anything.   He just sent me the original english owner's manual and I can't wait to try and get it running again. 

Any advice on firing a car that has hibernated for 15 years is appreciated. I will naturally change all fluids and try to trickle charge the batteries one at a time.  Would I be advised to manually lube the engine internals before trying to fire it up?     J. Bradley


Post by: curator on March 29, 2006, 08:00:13 AM
Welcome J Bradley.  Where are you located? Be sure to take images and send them to me for posting and creating a member page.   

I fired up a 170Db a couple of months ago (after over 10 years of setting)....it took a while but finally started.   Be sure to have fresh batteries .....don't overheat the starter with consistent bursts.....give it a rest after short spurts... let the glow plug coil warm up with a nice glow.....be sure to put fresh diesel (which can get old) in the tank.   Be sure to open the air valve on the cannister (according to the book) and pump the air out of the system by the injection pump.   You might try removing the oil cover and oiling a few things...would certainly help the metal to metal startup after oil drains....but as to oil in the cylinder walls, I guess the only access might be glow plug holes?

Exciting times......

Post by: J Bradley on March 30, 2006, 10:17:45 PM I am in Birmingham, Alabama and will post pictures as soon as possible.   Thank you for the great advice on the starter. Having burned out a few on water logged land rovers I will try to contain myself as I bring this old gal back to life :)   

Post by: theaddams on March 30, 2006, 10:39:15 PM
The most important things are to be sure to get the air out of the fuel system, this is done by opening the bleeder screws on the fuel filter and on the side of the injection pump.  If it had fuel and was running when
shut down then, there should not be a problem here.  Then you can crank the engine over with a strong fresh battery (s) and after you see signs of oil pressure indicated on the gauge, you can then stop cranking and proceed to glow the glow plugs.  I would recommend glowing them for a good minute before then cranking the motor.

I once purchased a 180D( same engine) that had been sitting for several years in a field, and I brought a battery and pumped the hand primer pump several times and got in and turned on the glow plugs and then used a jumper wire on the  starter and the engine fired instantly, not after a few turns but  instantly, much to the surprise of the seller! This was with very old fuel. Glow plugs hot and compression (a combination of cranking speed and engine condition and it should fire up.)   Good luck.  Brian Welton

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Mercedes Benz 170-220 International Club Website
Boards => Technical => Topic started by: Stephen Dietrich on February 28, 2009, 04:07:10 PM


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Title: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on February 28, 2009, 04:07:10 PM
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I am unable to get the starter to turn over by the using the starter switch. When I connect the post of the solenoid which has all of the power going to it to the lower pole of the selenoid, I can get the engine to turn over. Can anyone tell me what the problem is? Thanks Stephen


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 28, 2009, 04:58:27 PM
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I can't quite make out the detail on your picture.  I can't see the wire that should be from your switch.
Here is a picture of mine. (220 Cab B, 6V.  But I think most function basicly the same.)

As a rule:
One of the large posts will have a wire that goes to the starter motor.
The other large post has the cable from the battery, and other heavy wires connected to it.
The smaller "screw" terminal is where the lead from your starter switch should be and it is what "activates" the starter solenoid and thus causes the two large posts to be connected together electrically.

Added Note: You can test the solenoid by taking a wire and short it from your solenoid post that has the battery wire on it and touch it to that smaller screw connection and the solenoid should engage.  If it does, then the problem is in the wire harness to/from your switch.  If the solenoid still doesn't work whith this test, then you may have a problem with the solenoid itself.

I hope I explained that correctly?
Scott




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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on February 28, 2009, 05:56:57 PM
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I labeled the points for clarity. When I connect point A to C, I get it to turn over. I moved the black and red wire (from the starter switch) from point A to B. I am hoping this is correct.


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Jim Axman on February 28, 2009, 07:44:41 PM
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Black/Red wire from Rotary dash to your mark B  (lower terminal Solenoid)  appears correct wiring.   Does it work this way?

(updated- incorrectly used Mark C (in lieu of B).


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 28, 2009, 08:20:13 PM
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Hmm.  Jim,
Maybe the 170 works different, or I'm just not seeing it, or following you, correctly because I'm too tired.

I see his "A" on the upper large lug.  I see the "B" near the screw type connection in the middle. But I don't see a "C".  I assumed it was the bottom larger lug.  Is that the one you are talking about Jim? I would think that if the wire from the dash starter switch was connected to the "lower terminal" that you would then be effectively bypassing the solenoid and would then be passing too much current through that Blk/Rd wire and the switch.
Well like I said, Maybe it's entirely different than mine.  Looks can be deceiving, and I have a lot to learn about these cars and all the variations of them.


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on February 28, 2009, 08:28:07 PM
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It is exactly like yours Scott. Didn't try it yet because I ran out of time. I'll try it out tomorrow.


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Jim Axman on February 28, 2009, 08:32:18 PM
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Mistated C - changed to B in my original post.  sorry, jet lag from Cincinnati to Denver


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on March 01, 2009, 11:30:29 PM
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Still no luck on on getting the starter to turn over with the starter switch. Even when I can get the starter to turn over I have no luck in getting it started.


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Paavo on March 02, 2009, 02:51:12 AM
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Hello Stephen

Solenoid is same as relay. Turning start key, coil inside goes magnetic and switch thick wire from battery to starter together and starter motor runs if ground wire is good condition. (connection battery minus -> car body-> engine -> starter motor body)
If motor try run but power is missing, reason is:
A - Thin wire (almost shot)
B - Connection inside solenoit is bad condition (too little area left)
C - Ground connection is bad (paint rust etc.)
D - Bad battery (Voltage drops in load)

"When I connect the post of the solenoid which has all of the power going to it to the lower pole of the selenoid, I can get the engine to turn over."

I think B is right. You replace bad solenoid connection. (Starting needs lot of amperes and copper melts rough. Happens ones to me, but I use file.)


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 02, 2009, 03:06:46 AM
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Stephen,
I agree with Paavo (helpful drawing).
In my earlier note, I mentioned a way to test the solenoid.  Using your "A,B,C" labels, jumper "A" to "B" and starter motor should turn.  If not, solenoid is bad. If it does, then your wire harness/switch is the problem.  If you have a volt meter, you could also remove the blk/rd wire that comes from your switch to see if you have voltage there when the switch is activated.
You also mentioned that it will not fire even if the starter solenoid is shorted.  I'm not familiar with the diesel engines but I wonder if you have proper voltage to all the other points in the engine compartment.  Also, do all the lights, etc work?
That's about the extent of my knowledge, sorry.


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on March 02, 2009, 06:59:34 AM
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I will check it once I get back in town. I certainly hope the solenoid is bad as I had the starter unit rebuilt. I know when I connect A with C the unit turns over but will have to check B to C.


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Jim Axman on March 02, 2009, 03:03:31 PM
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Well several factors in starting once the starter is engaged:
Let's go down the check list.   


The bowden cable from the rotary switch advances the lever on the injection pump to infuse diesel into the cylinders. Bowden cable is always a problem.  There is a way to start the engine without this action, by pouring some diesel down the plenum after removing the air filter
the rotary has 2 stages.   First stage is glow plug indicator getting warm, 2nd stage is starter activating, with bowden cable advancing lever on injection pump putting diesel in cylinders.  after start, the rotary kicks back to previous stage

assume Key on ignition is switched on to supply power.   


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on March 02, 2009, 03:41:11 PM
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I was hoping to get either it running (best outcome) or at least getting it to turn over by utilizing the starter switch before I went out of town. I am working out of the area and now will have to wait until April to see what the trouble is. I appreciate everyones suggestions. Stephen


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: BrianWelton on March 03, 2009, 09:20:53 PM
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The starter is energized by turning the rotary-glow plug/starter switch all the way to the right,
or position #2. ( after the ignition switch is turned  on) May I ask what is the history of the wiring/etc with the car?
Was the starter working before and if so what has changed?



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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on March 03, 2009, 10:06:11 PM
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I had the started rebuilt and put in a new wiring harness to the starter, generator and engine compartment. I believe the wiring is correct but will doulble check it again. I just assumed they serviced the solenoid along with the starter. Prior to the bolt coming out the side of the block, everything worked well. Stephen


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: BrianWelton on March 06, 2009, 08:32:30 PM
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I noted that you said that it would not start even after you jumped it and got the starter to spin.  As this is the first time to start the engine there is required a very
extensive fuel bleeding process that needs to be done or you will spin the engine forever before it will even try to fire.  After bleeding the fuel out of the main fuel filter
you will need to get the air out of the injector lines that run from the injection pump to the injectors.  This can be done manually by removing the side cover on the injection pump and using a large screw driver to push up on each of the 4 plungers many times
while you have the injector line loose at the injector end until you see fuel leaking out at the fitting.  This will take many pushes against the plunger.  The alternative method is use the starter to spin the engine, and therefor the injection pump many times.
This will put a lot of strain on the battery and the starter, what I have found is the best solution is to remove the glow plugs and then the engine will spin very fast and you can
accomplish the goal much faster.  Same idea loosen the fittings at the injector end  of the lines and spin the engine until fuel is leaking out.  Do not try to start the engine until you have gotten the air out of these lines.  Then of coarse you must make sure the glow plugs are glowing etc.


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Title: Re: Starting HELP!!!!
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on March 06, 2009, 08:51:24 PM
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I will take the side plate off and manually bleed the system. Thanks Brian, Scott, Jim and Paavo Stephen