Broken exhaust welds

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Title: Exhaust System
Post by: Scott Montoney on September 30, 2008, 07:55:45 AM
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It looks like I will need to work on my exhaust system this winter and I have a few questions.
If I go through MB for replacement parts, does anyone know if these are stainless steel or not?
I am aware of a USA based company, "Timevalve.com", that can produce a SS system for my 220.
Has anyone had any personal experience with them?
Are there any other places in the USA that would be worth looking into?
Thanks for any and all replies.
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on September 30, 2008, 08:00:01 AM
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Scott, the system shown on the front page of the website is a Time Valve system. I have also placed them on my 300 and 190SL and have been vary pleased with them.  Stephen
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: curator on September 30, 2008, 08:47:08 AM
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Scott, a complete exhaust system is one of my next major purchases.  As with Dr Deech, I also purchased a timevalve for my 300 series and was very pleased with the results.
As I mentioned previously by private email, the system came bundle in several pieces.   I clamp it all together under the car, checking clearance, angles, etc...then scribe it to ensure reassemble back the same.  Took the pieces over to an old time welder, who welded it in 2 basic sections (mainly for me hauling it back home) and I used a slip joint to assemble it togther.  Brooklyn Motoren Werke had suggested putting a slip joint, so that part of the system forward (header pipe, etc) could be removed when working on the engine, or removing it (versus removing the entire muffler system, which is welded). 
What I understand about timevalve, is that restores, such as Brooklyn Motoren Werke, and probably Henry Magno (since I wonder where Timevalve got the 170 and 220 model copies?), have provided examples for duplication...so that angles and positioning would be correct for all forthcoming productions pieces. 

I've only known one guy to buy a Borla system for his 220S ponton.  Said he had problems getting it to fit and had it custom welded and assembled at a local muffler shop. 

Since SS systems have a tendency to emit a different type of sound than OEM ....Brooklyn tried wrapping the entire system on their 300 car....it seemed to make a difference in the sound.    I bought 2 spools of wrap at summitt racing and wrapped my header pipes down to the first connection, and noticed that they reduced the amount of heat in the engine compartment and did some noise reduction.   (Danger, wrapping headers is non-oem and you could be subject to fine by the originality police !)     
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: volker on October 01, 2008, 06:15:54 AM
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I got my stainless system from Sobkoviak in germany. See previous posts on this subject.  Henry said he liked it better than Timevalve. No welding needed. It came ready to install.
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: Scott Montoney on October 01, 2008, 07:05:03 AM
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Thanks Volker, I'll check with Henry.

Henry,
In what aspects did you prefer one over the other? 
Any other vendor I might want to consider?
If I could even get one through MB, is theirs stainless steel?

Considering my language barrier, the Euro-Dollar exchange, and shipping, I was going to look at US options first but welcome all input.
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on October 01, 2008, 07:31:45 AM
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Before you decide, take into consideration going to a shop for welding and the cost of the labor. Five years ago I paid $200. I would really prefer a unit where there wasn't any cutting and welding. My system for my OTP would already be in place. Stephen
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: Henry Magno on October 01, 2008, 07:36:19 AM
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There have been problems with the Timevalve systems cracking around the welds. I just repaired a 220 S system (in fairness, it was fairly old) and had to replace a muffler on a  170 S system a few years ago which was about eight years old at the time. A neighbor shop has had similar problems. We just installed  220 S system and what they provide requires a lot of welding and fitting of the header pipes which include the front muffler. I had to send this section back to be remade as they had the bends wrong. They generally try to help out, but the problem with the 220 S could be solved by using mandrel bent tubes, but they don't do it because they said it would cost too much.

The 220 system from Timevalve is less tricky to fit than the 220 S, and has been generally OK.

I would like to use the German systems but cost is a factor. I did look at a 220 system, (purchased from Niemoeller by our member Leon Schlemminger) and it looked good. The level of workmanship is higher.  I'm assuming that this was a Sobkoviak system but I'm not positive about that.

MB is not supplying any stainless systems. They want you to buy OE so you will keep coming back for more.
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: Henry Magno on October 01, 2008, 07:40:53 AM
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It's hard to avoid welding most of the systems. If the joint is intended to be welded, they often make the weld joints a loose fit to allow some fitting to the car. If it's a clamp joint, it will be a tight fit.
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: Scott Montoney on October 01, 2008, 08:02:37 AM
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Thanks for the helpful insight. 
In the mean time, I'm trying to track down when and where my current system came from.  It's stainless steel and looks to be in great shape except for this leak that developed all of a sudden around the front muffler.  Maybe it can be repaired or might be under a warranty but frequently warranties don't follow to new owners.
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: Scott Montoney on October 01, 2008, 07:27:21 PM
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I found the shop invoice of when the Stainless Steel exhaust system was installed (Nov. 2002).  It does not mention the manufacturer.  I'll contact the installer to try to get additional information and determine my next course of action.
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: r39o on October 02, 2008, 06:22:16 PM
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Both Timevalve and Borla (East) do not have a mandrel bender anymore.  Told me they were too expensive to keep.  So you get restrictive muffler shop bends. 

I bought a Timevalve because it came so highly recommend.  What a disappointment.  It cost $500.  It did not fit that well.  Had to heat it to bend it right.  Sad.

They flow different from stock too.  I ended up changing jets to get my engine to run right again.  My exhaust was NOS, but rusted out from sitting too much.

The one from Europe is VERY nice.  Cost about the same.

There is a place in Canada that makes mandrel bent exhausts.  They wanted $800 and if I had know that the Timevalve was not mandrel bent, I would have bought that.  Then the other good exhaust became available.  It did this exhaust about 5 years ago now.  Maybe thngs have changed.  Don't know.
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: Scott Montoney on October 17, 2008, 02:59:56 PM
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For those that might be interested, here is where I am with this issue.  The Stainless Steel exhaust is 6 years old.  The shop that installed it doesn't have records of where they got the muffler system so I still have no idea of the manufacturer.

I removed the entire exhaust today (pictures attached).
The problem is definitely broken welds.  In particular, the welds where the tube goes into and out of the mufflers.  One is completely cracked 360 degrees around the tube.  Some of the others are partially cracked.  I'll start trying to find a shop that can weld these since the rest of the system looks to be in good shape.
If anyone can identify the Mfg of this system by the pictures, that would be helpful.
Since it is all welded as one piece, and I was able to get it out in one piece, it ought to make it easier for the person to weld since it is out of the car and I can just take the exhaust system to the welder and not the entire car.

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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: curator on October 20, 2008, 01:00:56 AM
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wow !   thanks for the images Scott.  so it connects in 3 places (including the header).   I guess since there is not slip joints before the first muffler, you had no choice (option) but to remove the entire system.
I could be mistaken, but I'm betting that maybe this is a timevalve system (since it makes sense that the shop would only have access to either Borla or timevalve in the US unless they wanted one shipping here from Germany.
I know of no other resource here.    What is interesting from the images, is that the welds of the muffler cracked, and not the connection points by the muffler....maybe this is the common vulnerabilty.  or maybe they found the mufflers easily and someone configure pipes ?    something is unusual about this....I recall my SS timevalve had the pipes separate and mufflers, and the welds were at the muffler only exxcept for a slip joint? 

(update>>> oh now I see, in my 300 muffler images, the connections were the same, just that larger diameter pieces were prewelded at timevale to accomodate the larger size of pipe going into the muffler ).  the 300 had a 3rd muffler and of course much longer than you 220. 
 
yours looks in reasonably good shape, so you have no alternative (unless hundred dollar bills are flowing from you pockets) but to get it rewelded.   Perhaps they can do a better job with the system OFF the car.   

[admin]

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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: Henry Magno on October 20, 2008, 06:24:57 AM
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This is exactly the failure mode I was talking about. It looks like a Timevalve but I wouldn't swear to it. A good welder should be able to fix this. Find someone with a TIG welder and use stainless steel rod.
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: Scott Montoney on October 20, 2008, 07:48:14 AM
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Jim
 - The seams on the picture of your oval shaped muffler looks exactly like mine.  My guess is Timevalve.

Thanks Henry
 - I'm heading out the door right now with the exhaust system in the back of my truck to go talk to a few shops.
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Title: Re: Exhaust System
Post by: CraigS on October 20, 2008, 10:26:02 PM
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One of the problems with the exhaust system is the lack of use, and subsequent rusting of the system due to retained moisture. The fix for most people is to use a SS system to prevent this, however as mentioned, there is a "different" sound to a SS system, which personally, I don't like. What I did was to have a conventional system made, then coated the inside of all pipes and mufflers with POR 15. Easy to do. Seal one end, pour it in, roll it around, pour out excess and wait to dry. The excess can be used in the next section so you don't waste it.