Title: Parts questions
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on July 03, 2007, 12:03:00 AM
I have several questions regarding replacing parts vs. utilizing the old parts vs. rebuilding. My main problem is a limited budget along with somewhat limited knowledge. I know when a clutch or brake pads need to be replaced but what about the pressure plate and throw out bearing? What are things I should be looking at to make a decision about replacing these items? My mechanic has worked on these cars back in the "old country" and English is not his first language. So replacing everything is "very good" but also very expensive.
I know there have been water pumps for sale on eBay but I haven't paid much attention because I didn't know I would be needing one. I contacted one of the vendors and was $365. To me this seem to be expensive, with a rebuild being much more economical.
I would appreciate any and all input on this matter. I also realize I will have to make the final decision but would like to make an informed decision. The parts I am looking into is the water pump, throw out bearing, pressure plate for starters. Thanks Stephen
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: curator on July 03, 2007, 10:13:00 PM
I don't know anything about throw-out bearings or pressure plates, but it seems logical that when the engine is out and you have access to the tranny, you might have these checked for wear, otherwise the tranny has to be dropped later if there is a problem. Pressure plates don't see that expensive. Most of the waterpumps on ebay have been running around $100+ dollars. You could easily install one of these with the engine in the car, IF yours goes out later. I replaced one last year, and its a matter of the belt, removing the fan blade, removing the old water pump. Much more clearance up front on a Diesel than the gas engine.
I think most of us try to attend to the needs of the car a step at a time....and probably put everything into priorities of cost and importance. In my case, I am trying to get the car driveable and reliable, then I'll attend to other needs as time and $ permit. in your case, since it was a daily driver, all mechanicals need to be reliable and trustworthy. Once you get it running and tested, you can attend to other things on the car. I like the way you have done other stuff while waiting for the engine..that keeps the motivation going..... i would love to have a stainless muffler system, but It is somewhat of a big ticket item..... I need a new Kombi cluster (Water/Oil/Fuel) and it costs about the price of a muffler system, so it gets my priority at this time. There is a point in here somewhere... I think you should be proud of the fact that you have motivated yourself to get the engine restored and made great progress this year. congratulations
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: Charles Adamson on July 03, 2007, 10:15:57 PM
Stephen, I had Paul's Autohaus rebuild my waterpump for $100. plus. Try Sachs for clutch parts.
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on July 04, 2007, 01:24:08 AM
I was somewhat blown away by some of the prices I was quoted:
-clutch pressure plate: 270.00
- clutch friction disc: 374.00
- water pump: 365.00; this is a replacement water pump, supposedly requiring a new pulley for 246.00, and a gasket for 6.00
These seemed high. I am still trying to research the pressure plate and throw out bearing. I will be sending the water punp and clutch to Automotive Friction in Oregon to be rebuilt.
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: John Ellis on July 04, 2007, 02:05:02 AM
I feel your pain! Because of similar circustances, I try and purchase expendible parts when there is a good deal on eBay. Easier to stock parts than pay the high price when actually needed, the prices will only be more costly in the future. I was able to pick up a new-old stock water pump for $80 and a NOS oil filter assembly for $60.
Another way is to research alternative parts. For example, using the specifications for the shock absorbers, I was able to use the manufacturer's on-line specification tables to find shocks at reduced costs over the normal sources. On the 170Va/Vb a Monroe 31089 are appropriate for the rear shocks and are less than $20 apiece vs. over $60 from German sources.
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on July 04, 2007, 02:11:54 AM
Here is what I was able to find out about pressure plates courtesy of John Olson from the 300 Adenauer Group.
Yes indeed, the 300 series pressure plates are often repaired. Resurfacing the face itself is still done in larger cities. Ditto for the counter-surface of the flywheel. If there are no severe heat burns -- usually hardened blue-ish marks. Also hairline cracks appear but can be overlooked if resurfacing is successful. The shops that do it will tell you what can be successful. The blue marks are critical to the repair shop as they can hurt the shop's equipment. The little adjustment screws that wear can be rotated to a non-wear point for another few decades in the spirit of conservation ( ;-) . New screws are available for M-B as they apply to so many different models. Achieving the precise spring-pressure specs for each model is less crucial than testing the set of springs for nearness to each other -- to ensure the clutch engages with equal pressure around its circumference. There are after-market companies specializing in finding matching springs. I changed from the original spring pressure (to softer) for use with a keflar-lined clutch disc. I commissioned enough pre-cut kevlar discs, with correct diameter and thickness for a few friends. If anyone that wants the world's most indestructible material contact me privately. I've been "in there" subsequently to change ratios in my trannie and there does not appear to be increased wear on the pressure plate or flywheel from Kevlar, the "armchair" fear of this transgression.
John Olson (
www.slmarket.com)
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: John Ellis on July 04, 2007, 02:20:42 AM
Stephen, I just checked Niemoeller for prices and the water pump should be around 120 euro for the complete assembly including the pulley/fan housing. A friction clutch plate is 105 euro and the clutch pressure plate is 126 eruo. My price list is 2 years old but it should be within 15% of the current cost. I know that you can get the clutch pressure and friction plates elsewhere for less than the numbers I stated.
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: Henry Magno on July 04, 2007, 12:41:02 PM
I can supply the following:
Pressure plate $ 170
Clutch Disc $ 128
Water pump w/ pulley $ 150
plus shipping
These clutch parts are the same as most pontons. If the pressure plate surface looks good, not blue spots from overheating etc, and if it looks like it has been replaced before, you might consider reusing it. I know that the original clutches had smaller springs than the replacements so the newer versions might hold up better.
The release bearing is not the same and you probably need to get that from Niemoeller, as well as the adapter spacer they sell. They sell a sealed bearing so you can eliminate the central lube function for that point, probably a good idea.
The adjusting screws John Olson is referring to are not relevant to these clutches. However the lock nuts for these clutches are available from MB, but there are two styles depending on when the pressure plate was manufactured.
When installing a new clutch, you must check the finger height of the pressure plate with the parts installed on the flywheel, best done on the bench with the flywheel off the car.
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: Scott Montoney on July 04, 2007, 03:45:26 PM
Henry - Interesting note regarding the removal of the central lube line. I had noticed that mine was "terminated" and I had been concerned as to why. A newer sealed bearing would make sense.
Thanks.
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: John Ellis on July 04, 2007, 08:24:39 PM
Here are the Sachs parts numbers for the clutch parts
pressure plate assy Sachs #1882-102-132 (MB part number 136 250 00 04)
friction disc Sachs #1861-123-236 (MB part number 136 250 05 03)
As Henry stated, the same parts were used on the Ponton series Mercedes.
Quite a good article on the clutch assembly repair on the MBZ Ponton website.
http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/maintenance/clutch/clutch_replace3.htm (
http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/maintenance/clutch/clutch_replace3.htm)
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on July 06, 2007, 12:44:14 AM
Today I boxed up my generator and starter and sent them off to be rebuilt. My water pump and pressure plate will be going out to Automotive Friction to be rebuilt. I think my pressure plate is in pretty good shape but will have it checked out anyway.
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: curator on July 06, 2007, 06:02:46 AM
where did you send your generator and starter?
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on July 06, 2007, 09:17:34 AM
I used Auto Electric in Kingston, Ontario, Canada.
http://www.autoelectrickingston.com/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Parts questions/ spacer adapter for sealed release bearing
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on July 26, 2007, 06:22:39 PM
I was wondering what info there is to know about the adapter spacer for the sealed release bearings. I understand my generator and starter are done and will be sent out tomorrow. Stephen
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on August 02, 2007, 06:24:45 PM
I received the first set of parts which were sent out to be reconditioned. Automotive Friction Co. refurbished the water pump, pressure plate assembly and friction disc. The total was $195. The starter and generator will be back on Friday. By the way, Automotive Friction is moving this month. Their new address is 20521 SE HWY 212, Damascus, OR 97089. Stephen
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on August 07, 2007, 11:58:48 PM
Star Classics does have the sealed clutch release bearing. The part number is 121 254 00 10. Their cost is $66 vs. 95 Euros plus 30 Euros for shipping from Niemoller.
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: John Ellis on August 08, 2007, 12:51:39 AM
That's interesting. The MB number is for a Ponton (121) which means our cars share the clutch release (throw-0ut) bearing with a much larger group of cars. Good find Stephen! Was the part boxed with an OEM manufacturer and number? By the way, the MB price for this item is nearly double the Star Classics price.
There is a great technical article on the MB Ponton website regarding these bearings and their sleeves.
http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/maintenance/clutch/clutch_replace3.htm (
http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/maintenance/clutch/clutch_replace3.htm)
I am compiling a list of OEM equivalents, so this is really helpful. Someday perhaps we will be able to obtain common repair parts at a reasonable price.
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Title: Re: Parts questions
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on August 08, 2007, 01:14:20 AM
It came in a sealed Mercedes parts box. Stephen
